The Awesome Power of Being a Facilitator
An interview with Devin Grabner, PhD Candidate
Meet Devin:
Devin Grabner is a PhD candidate and graduate research assistant in the physics department at Washington State University. Devin has a BS in physics and chemistry from Walla Walla University and an MS in physics from Washington State University. In addition to his PhD, he is pursuing an MBA through the Washington State University Global Campus. At the time of this interview, he had just secured a job with the Naval Surface Warfare Center before completing his PhD. He now works as an analyst while completing his dissertation.
Devin joined the Air Force after high school. After separating from the military, he studied Fire Science and trained to be an Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) and firefighter at his local Community College. After switching to a four-year college, he has continued volunteering as an EMT and firefighter for his local community. As a grad student, he launched a successful colloquium series bringing in speakers from industry to help his fellow students prepare for the non-academic careers that most will have.
Devin has a wide range of interests outside of physics and chemistry, and this diversity of interests and experiences has benefited him in his career networking.
An excerpt from our conversation:
Dave: Speaking of education, I would like to learn more about the industry career colloquium that you started. Can you tell me about that?
Devin: I became concerned about all the people I met here at WSU who focused solely on their research and then got to the end of their graduate degrees and asked, ‘Ok, now what?’
It happens a lot, and I cannot grasp why anyone would ever think that that is a good idea. I also wondered why nobody was telling them to do anything different. Why is nobody asking them how they are preparing for whatever comes next?
I came across some research on STEM career outcomes that said about 8% to 10% of STEM PhDs go on to some kind of academic position, whether that be a postdoc, teaching, or a fellowship. By the time they reach the end of end of their careers, only 1% of STEM PhDs retire as a tenured professor.
And yet, in academia 100% of us are taught how to be a professor. That is the opposite of what should be happening!
Dave: The irony is that the professors are people who work with data for a living. How do they not see that big problem?
Devin: I think it’s that they just want to do the science and they need the postdocs. Also, most professors have never done anything else and know nothing about other career paths.
I didn’t want an academic career path anyway, so I started looking into other resources that might help me find a different career path I liked better. I wanted to know what I could do while working on my PhD so that when I graduated, I was well prepared for the career path I wanted rather than the traditional academic path. I also wanted to know who I could meet and talk to about other career options. I wanted to be able to talk to people live because that is the best way to ask more pointed questions.
I started by looking at resources that the university already offered. I found that they had brought Cheeky Scientist in, but that didn’t work out well for people.
That’s how I ended up getting on LinkedIn, following people like you, and reading a lot of the stuff you were posting. I think I followed you for a good year and a half before reaching out.
I went and talked to the people in charge of the colloquiums for the department and asked if we could bring in some industry people. However, they didn’t feel there was as much of a benefit to the grad students as when they brought in other professors to talk about their research.
I told them the grad students don’t like our current colloquium because they only bring in professors who talk about the research their grad students have done, in areas that none of us are interested in. The only people who ask questions are the WSU professors who work in the same research areas.
Dave: That’s just like the colloquium we had when I was a grad student, and I also thought it had no value.
Devin: Luckily, my advisor, Brian Collins, is very passionate about improving education. I talked about bringing in industry speakers, and he thought it was a great idea. He told me, ‘I don’t know anything about industry careers, so I can't help you directly. But I can at least advocate for you doing this.’ He suggested I speak with the department chair, Brian Saam.
I talked to the department chair, who also thought it was an excellent idea. He told me, ‘I don’t have the bandwidth to do this, but if you are willing to take charge, I will make sure you have some money.’ There wasn’t a lot of money at first, but it was enough to start bringing in some people with industry experience.
It was after that conversation that I reached out to you. You helped me with a few speakers to kick it off, and it grew from there. The origin was perhaps a bit selfish, but I figured that if I wanted that information, other people probably did also.
Dave: It’s wonderful that your advisor and department chair were so supportive. We need more of that.
And I am so happy that the industry career colloquium is working well for you so far. When I got that first call from you, now over a year ago, I was very impressed with the initiative you were taking to set it up. I decided that I needed to do whatever I could to help you make it happen. And of course, it was great to come out and speak at the colloquium myself last month.
(Continued below)
Dave: What is the most rewarding thing that has come out of this colloquium project?
Devin: I have really enjoyed the feedback I’ve received from people who have found it valuable. People say, ‘That was great, and I learned so much! I wish I could have learned this a few years ago!’ They stop me and ask me when the next speaker is coming and what they will talk about.
It is hard to explain, but it really bothered me watching people reach the end of their PhD or master’s and not know where to turn to learn about their career options. It feels good to be making a difference so people don’t have that problem anymore.
Dave: I know just what you mean about that great feeling when you help others with their career plans.
Devin: I really enjoy helping people, but I suppose you can see that from some of the things I’ve chosen to do in my career, such as becoming an EMT and a firefighter.
Of course, I’ve also benefitted from the career advice from the speakers that I’ve brought in. I’ve learned things that led to me adjusting my own plans. For example, after our first speaker, Tanya Ramond, was here, I started an online MBA to set myself up for senior leadership roles at a company.
Dave: Have you also made some valuable contacts through building this colloquium?
Devin: Yes, definitely. Since I’ve been the organizer, I get to know the speakers and stay in touch with them after their visit. For example, I’m doing this interview with you now and have a chance to share my story. And Ben Cromey, our second speaker, has helped me find industry people to sit on a panel for a conference I’m helping plan at the University of California Berkeley.
Getting to know influential people at the university has also been helpful. And with each successful colloquium, I meet even more. After you came to speak a few weeks ago, I had people from the graduate school and some other department heads approach me and ask to be involved in future events.
Dave: That’s awesome, Devin!
Devin: Early on, I was a little worried that the colloquium would end when I left the university and that all the work I put in would be for nothing. But after the second colloquium, a fellow student named Lauren McDermott asked me if she could help out. I told her she could take it over. Now that I have taken a job, she is preparing to carry it forward from here.
Dave: Yes, I’ve already been speaking to Lauren about a few more speaker candidates I have in mind.
What has been most challenging aspect of launching the industry career colloquium?
Devin: The most difficult and time-consuming part was the hundreds of emails to get money. It was a lot of time-consuming communication, and there were two people who didn’t think I’d be able to pull it off. They wanted to know why they should give me all of that money.
All the problems that resulted from bringing Cheeky Scientist in made it especially difficult to get funding to bring in industry speakers. Their first attempt at non-academic career resources had been a waste of money with nothing to show for it.
Dave: I’m glad that they didn’t decide to quit after that failure. I guess it was a great learning experience for you to figure out how to persuade people to give you money?
Devin: Yes, it was. Having the endorsement from the department chair and my advisor was helpful in persuading them, because they are fairly well known at the university. Their endorsement gave me some credibility.
My position on the committee that is planning that conference at Berkeley Lab was also helpful. I was on the same committee last year, and we organized an entire conference of speakers and workshops. I told them that after that experience, I was pretty sure I could handle setting up one speaker for the colloquium.
Dave: Well, I was impressed when you contacted me, because I don’t hear from graduate students who want to start their own colloquium. I hope that when they hear your story, more decide to follow your example and help their own university. As you described, there are many benefits in taking on a project like that.
Starting that colloquium is an entrepreneurial kind of project. You see a problem and decide to find a way to solve it, whatever that takes. You run into challenges you didn’t anticipate, and you find a way to address them. I respect that, and it gives you great stories to tell when looking for your first job.
Devin: You know, the first time I asked for additional money to pay your speaking fee so we could bring you to campus, I was told they didn’t have the budget. They said that maybe if I got another organization to help, maybe we could do a virtual session.
But I didn’t want that, so I just pushed back. And I was able to use COVID as an example, because we’ve seen in the last few years that virtual sessions just don’t work as well. You get so much more out of watching a speaker in person. You get body language and more emotion – you just get more out of it. Also, a virtual session allows you to turn your camera off and go make yourself some food while listening, and then you realize you missed what the speaker was saying.
Dave: I agree. I’ve attended many virtual sessions in the last few years, and it’s so easy to be distracted by other things, even when you really care about the session.
Well, I’m so glad that your colloquium has worked and that you’ve already seen benefits from doing it. You set a great example for others, and I want to share your story to show others that it can be done.
Devin: I have two important pieces of advice for anyone who would like to set up their own industry career colloquium like I did.
First, follow through with what you set out to do. Sometimes, things you plan just don’t work, but if you keep going, you can still make something of value.
Second, own your mistakes. Everybody messes up, but nothing is more frustrating than watching somebody mess up and then being unwilling to admit it, secretly hoping you will just ignore it. Don’t hope nobody noticed because they probably did.
You have to be willing to say, ‘I messed up, and this is what I am planning to do to fix it. If anybody has a better idea, please let me know.’ I’ve found that when I admit my mistake and show that I want to make it better, people are usually very accepting and open to that.
Dave: Thanks for that advice. I agree, you really earn trust when you own up to a mistake.
Devin: So, you were here at WSU talking about networking. One thing I’ve found very helpful is being able to converse with people about things other than work, which has made things easier. We all know people who focus all their energy on getting very good at one thing. But embracing other activities in my life has made it easier to talk to people, and that helps with networking.
Not everybody wants to talk about what they do for work all the time. I enjoy talking about rebuilding classic motorcycles or the nuances of distilling whiskey and bourbon, and I don’t have to be great at these hobbies to enjoy talking with others about them.
This is particularly helpful being a PhD physicist. I don’t enjoy telling people what I do for work because the reaction is so often, ‘Oh, you must be really smart.’ Then they shut down and don’t want to talk anymore because nobody likes feeling inferior. Having a diverse background of knowledge, hobbies, and interests to talk about has made it a lot easier to get people to open up. I have made some great connections by completely steering away from my career interests.
As a great example, the conversation that led to this job I just got with the Navy started out about wine, cigars, and the military. It was only after talking for about an hour and a half that he asked what I did for work. By then, he was already interested in me as a person.
Dave: That is an awesome story, and it aligns with what I’ve learned in my own career. I once spent an entire job interview session talking with the CTO about a book I’d written. He was so interested that we never got to his interview questions. And I got the job.
Fund Devin’s LinkedIn profile here
